Tuesday, August 5, 2014

200,000 Plus Served

Thanks to CPO's readers for 200,000 plus page views.  CPO is there to provide a collector's perspective on issues where all too often the "archaeology over all" perspective is pitched as the only "legitimate" one.     Hopefully, more collector friendly voices like the excellent Committee for Cultural Policy blog and Michael McCullough LLC blog (due for an update given Michael's new law firm association) will gain notice.  All too often media outlets rely on pre-packaged information from government publicity machines and their echo chambers in the archaeological blogosphere for information.

14 comments:

stoutstandards said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Cultural Property Observer said...

Thanks Dick! I enjoy your blog too and John's musings there as well. I also wish coin collectors were as organized as detectorists in the UK. Imagine what the law would be like there without their lobbying efforts!

kyri said...

hi peter firstly congratulations on reaching 200k hits,its true that dicks blog gets at least 10-15 comments on every blog while paul gets very few but dick might blog one story every day and paul blogs maybe 5-6.when reading dicks comment on the number of comments to blog ratio, plutarch comes to mind"i dont need a friend who changes when i change and who nods when i nod,my shadow does that much better"reading the comments on dicks blog its much of a muchness,everyone agreeing with him.as for mr barford,he has had over one million hits,people want to read what he has to say,that cant be ignored.yes sometimes he is ott like with the rolf harris analogy but his blog is informative and right up to date on cultural issues.i dont agree with everything he says but he does talk alot of sense sometimes.i also read waynes blog and john hookers to get the bigger picture in this debate.as for lobbying efforts of uk detectorists its a good thing they didnt listen to john howland because he was lobbying against the PAS or anything like it for years.
kyri

stoutstandards said...

Congratulations Peter....well deserved. Doubt I will ever see 200,000 on Stout Standards. I must admit however that I blog because I enjoy it and it’s a way for me to stay in touch with old friends.

Unfortunately there are a few bloggers out there who are only interested in numbers despite the fact that the majority of people who visit their sites are only there to see what kind of garbage is being offered up or to merely to have a big laugh. The number of comments they receive versus the number of posts is a good indicator.

Keep up the good work. I enjoy your blog a great deal.

Dick



Cultural Property Observer said...

Kyri, thanks for your kind thoughts as well. Actually, the numbers reading all these blogs is quite small compared to let's say blogs on what the Kardashians are up to...sad isn't it?

stoutstandards said...

Kyri, understand where you are coming from with number of posts per day, friends commenting, etc., but doesn't Mr. Barford have any friends?

Also if you read my comment above I said my blog was a way for me to stay in touch with old FRIENDS. I also don't get paid for writing my blog like Mr. Barford does.

John H said...

kyri: Please take what follows on board. It is FACT. This is from the horses' mouth as opposed to its rear end al la Barford.

I and others campaigned successfully AGAINST the CBA over thirty years ago, who were trying make the reporting of detector finds compulsory, so as to get their hands on farmers' land for back-door Scheduling.

Their campaign unraveled when we put their 'facts' under public scrutiny the leaving them a laughing stock and leaving me, to become the most detested and widely hated figure in the metal detecting community. I still am.

It was widely acknowledged back then - and to a certain extent today - that 'archaeology' was in the hands of the political Left who were attempting to put into practice the infamous quote of Tom Hassall, then a senior member of the CBA (later to become it's Director) who stated that:-

"The trouble with a Thatcherite Government is that it looks after the interests of the landowner too well. In an ideal society all land would belong to the People. Unfortunately, we are some from the nationalization of all antiquities."

I was at the meeting when he made the remark. He tried to deny it when I later met him at subsequent meetings with the CBA.

Currently, I support the PAS one hundred per cent, and it is now the envy of the world.

Warmest regards

John Howland
England

kyri said...

hi john,thanks for that.i know you support the PAS now but when it was first considered in the early 90s,along with reforming the treasure act you and many other detectors were fighting tooth and nail against any change.
http://www.ncmd.co.uk/docs/DNH%20meeting%2024-10-94.pdf hear is a link to a letter written by john fargher about a meeting discussing the "treasure act" that came hand in hand with the PAS.this is a letter written by a leading metal detector describing the meeting with CBA and others.they didnt want the treasure act reformed at all or a PAS.they were saying it was an "attack on metal detectors" and threatened to "walk out of the meeting"more than once.old dogs dont like to learn knew tricks,i understand that,im the same,now the PAS is up and running they love it,as you do.nothing wrong with changing your mind,something you think is abhorrent today could be a good idea in your eyes tomorrow,licensing detectors for instance.i also support the PAS in principal but it certainly is not perfect and could do with some upgrading.there are alot of important finds coming out of the ground that are not being reported at all for one reason or another,probably because they have been found on scheduled land.
kyri
ps bit off topic,my family ownd a chip shop in gosport for over 15 years and i have enjoyed many days of beach walking in the area though only visiting bournemouth a couple of times,lovely beaches.

John H said...

Hi kyri:

John Fargher is an old friend of mine and we've fought many battles together.

What has to be realized is that the CBA and allied attack dogs along with various other archaeologists and historians with an axe to grind, used unsuccessfully, the detecting community to seriously screw down private collecting. Had you been known to collect Greek helmets in 1982/3 they would have targeted you mercilessly. They still might!
You are useful to them - for the moment.

Me? I told 'em to get stuffed and to come and get me if they thought they were hard enough. They weren't!

It was because of my journalistic connections and investigations regarding the Mary Rose and the debacle of the gold coins smuggled out of Kabul, they did not pursue me any further. I know, and they know I know, where the bodies are buried.

Now, when I have my phone tapped for fighting a legitimate corner in a what is called a democracy, then I know something is well awry.

I also know that a former senior member of the CBA was on the KGB payroll, and looked into my background only to inadvertently let slip that snippet of information - that only I could have known - at a subsequent meeting. Why then was the KGB interested in me? Not because I was a detectorist, that's for sure. I have since developed many contacts with former StB, Sb and KGB officers since the time when things went belly up in 1989.

If you're ever down Bournmouth way, I'd be happy to walk the beaches with you and even buy you a beer, or Ouzo!

Best regards

John Howland
England

John H said...

kyri:

Detectors must never be licenced, when collectors, and those describing themselves as archaeologists are not.

You say the PAS is not perfect and needs upgrading. FACT:- It does not, and for a voluntary scheme it is working extremely well.

FACT:- The PAS is aimed at the general public, NOT detectorists specifically, though these are the main contributors to the common record. Archaeologists are not reporting their finds in any number to it, though, the PAS encourages them to do so.

You also claim that important finds are coming out of the ground and not being reported to the PAS. Until you can lay your evidence for all to see, then your claim is pure FICTION. Yours is a common theme among some archaeologists, who, while on the one hand claim to be forensic in their excavations, then rely on unsubstantiated 'evidence' such as yours to attack detectorists.

Indeed, if you have evidence that artifacts are being stolen from Scheduled sites, then you have a duty to lay that evidence before the Police.

Best wishes

John Howland
England

John H said...

kyri:

Detectors must never be licenced, when collectors, and those describing themselves as archaeologists are not.

You say the PAS is not perfect and needs upgrading. FACT:- It does not, and for a voluntary scheme it is working extremely well.

FACT:- The PAS is aimed at the general public, NOT detectorists specifically, though these are the main contributors to the common record. Archaeologists are not reporting their finds in any number to it, though, the PAS encourages them to do so.

You also claim that important finds are coming out of the ground and not being reported to the PAS. Until you can lay your evidence for all to see, then your claim is pure FICTION. Yours is a common theme among some archaeologists, who, while on the one hand claim to be forensic in their excavations, then rely on unsubstantiated 'evidence' such as yours to attack detectorists.

Indeed, if you have evidence that artifacts are being stolen from Scheduled sites, then you have a duty to lay that evidence before the Police.

Best wishes

John Howland
England

kyri said...

hi john,as i said,some people are set in their ways and dont like change or are afraid of it.any suggestion of upgrading the treasure act ect is seen as "an attack on metal detectors" let me make one thing clear,i believe metal detectors have made great contributions to the archaeological record of the uk,im not anti metal detectors.what i would like is the hobby to be under some controls.whats wrong with licencing,you need one to fish and to go mud-larking on the thames.i have seen metal detectors bought at toy shops aimed at children as "treasure finders"with no regard for the law or best practice.detectors sound like a scratched record sometimes,saying the same things using the same arguments detectors have used for decades,
i suggest the PAS and treasure act need updating you say "fact it does not" its the same arguments the metal detectors used over 20 yrs ago,dennis jordan "the treasure bill is unnecessary,unjust,unworkable and too expensive to implement".same argument now being banded about when licencing is suggested.you say no licensing for metal detectors while archaeologists are not licensed,jordan "where are archaeologists equivalents to match ours" .on the suggestion on having a treasure trove inquest "totaly unacceptable" and when reporting finds was suggested ala PAS jordan said "who will set up the reporting stations who would pay for them",now you all love the PAS.if the NCMD had its way from the begining there would be no PAS.as for things coming out of the ground,yes i have seen things ,been offerd things that if reported to the PAS with all the publicity ect would sell for fortunes,the fact that a dealer is offering it to me with no paper work,well its not rocket science.look what the PAS did for the crosby garrette helmet,privately as a helmet that just poped out of thin air,an unethical collector would have paid maybe £30-50k for the helmet,not the 3 million it got legitimately.a treasure act that lets important finds like this slip through the net is not worth the paper its written on.i could go into my garden and find an important roman statue,vindolanda tablet or a long lost copy of magna cartar and because they are not made of precious metals they could be sold on ebay.this is not right.as for me doing my "duty" well maybe the dealers should stop buying the stuff,i did my bit by not buying unprovananced pieces that were to important not to have a collecting history.how many nighthawks have you reported to the police,surely you have heard things ,seen things in all your 40 years of detecting,or havent you ever come across any single act of bad practice by your fellow detectors,not even once in all those years,now that would be fiction.
kyri.

kyri said...

hi john,im neither a metal detector,nor an archaeologist and i admire the fact that you are willing to fight and die for your cause.the only thing i will say is these intransigent views ,from both sides will lead to nowhere.i know you read pauls blog ,have you seen the recent video of the guy detecting without permission.its these kind of guys i was talking about supplying dealers.they dont,or cant report their finds,can they.
kyri.
ps im a wine or cider man but my parents sold the shop in gosport in 2000 but thanks for the offer.

John H said...

kyri:

I can't speak for Dennis Jordan. There is no valid reason for metal detectors to be licensed, and you have not put a reasonable case, other than prostituting yourself to the oddball views of Paul Barford.

How you conduct your collecting ethics is entirely up to you and nothing whatsoever to do with me or anyone else.

In 40 years of detecting I have never witnessed any illicit behavior by metal detectorists, though I have read of instances where thieves using metal detectors have committed offences, as indeed, as I have read of archaeologists found guilty of looting, theft and importing pornography in crates labelled as 'artifacts'.

Despite what the loud-mouthed, Paul Barford claims, says or hints at, the PAS and the UK's metal detectorists are making huge contributions to the archaeological record, and that's what has got right up Barford's nose. He's a minority, though vocal figure, wailing away in a world of common sense...he attracts a certain kind of fellow traveler.

Indeed, anyone with half-an ounce of common sense will realize after spending five minutes on his ludicrous blog, he's lost the plot. He's become a huge figure of fun.

I trust and hope you have the nous to see thought him. Nor can I see how you can be a collector/dealer AND support his brand of eccentricity.

As for doing your duty in reporting criminal activity, your reply is a gutless cop-out. Put up or shut up! It's nothing to do with collectors. Not to report the criminal activity you claim to know about, makes you an accessory to those crimes. You can't run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

The offer of a beer still stands.

Best wishes

John Howland
England